Tire Problems

"Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo" (akioohtori) 03/08/2019 at 11:18 • Filed to: project golf ball

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Oh boy has it been a big couple of days for the Civic. It all started with an alignment. After putting the new wheels, tires, and tie rod ends on, I took it in for an alig nment. Everything was green. Except the car was pulling to the left. Hard.

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Ok, no big deal. Take it in a couple days later, they re-align it, saying a couple of measurements are out of wack.

Still pulling.

They re-re-align it.

Still pulling.

They rotate the tires front to back (not sure why they bothered?).

Siiiiiiilll pulling.

I call the vendor, TireBuyer, and while helpful, they’re not sure what the issue is. They think it is because I’m putting an LT tire on a very light car, causing... issues. I’m not so sure.

So I took matters into my own hands.

I lowered the PSI from 30 to 20 on the fronts. (No change)

I lowered the PSI from 30 to 20 all around. (No change)

I cross rotated the LF to RR. (No change)

I cross rotated the RF to LR. (Some change)

The last rotation made things... different. It isn’t pulling as hard, though it is still pulling, but now the car is vibrating badly over 50 MPH. Also I noticed one of the tires had a.... hair? About 1/8" thick, it is certainly larger than a “normal” demolding hair.

Also with further research, it appears these tires are directional but were not mounted as such. Internet seems to think that shouldn’t cause a problem.

Fuck a doodle doo.

So basically my options are:

Take a wild guess which tire is the problem (they all look fine) and return it as defective

Have the tires’ direction corrected

Have the tires re-balanced

Both 2 and 3

Have the alignment checked at a different shop

Swap the old wheels and tires back on the car

Return all four tires and exchange for normal road tires

1, 2, and 3, maintaining the option to do #7

In theory all of these options are free, except for #5.

At this point I’m pretty tired of... all of this, and inclined to go with #7 or #5. I just... don’t feel like messing with it anymore.

What does Oppo think? Ever had this?

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/08/2019 at 11:25

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Check the shocks and springs, but otherwise, already ticked everything off the list.

Swap back to the other wheels, see if the pull persists. If the pull persists, you’re most likely looking at a driveline problem, not a suspension problem. Meaning the pull is torque steering, not alignment.

TysMagic > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/08/2019 at 11:32

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The parents have an F350 that has always listed ever so slightly to the left. No matter what they do from tire to alignments to new suspension bits - it’s just what it does. That’s not comforting for you, but perhaps it’s going to just be part of life now? 

Sovande > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/08/2019 at 11:32

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I would move on to take a look at the suspension including tie rods, control arms, ball joints, etc.  I had a Volvo that would pull under hard breaking and it was the control arm bushings - under hard breaking they would allow the arm to “rotate” causing the car to pull.

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 03/08/2019 at 11:32

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The problem was not present with the old wheels/tires, but that was with the old tie rods...

vicali > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/08/2019 at 11:35

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put the old tires/wheels back on and see what it does. No use blaming the new tires if it’s a susp problem.

LT might aggravate things but they shouldn’t cause them.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/08/2019 at 11:41

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2 and 3. Re-evaluate. If pull is still present, swap front tires side to side. If still present, swap rear tires side to side. If still present, try old wheels and tires again.

Also, while technically within spec, I've seen that much thrust angle cause a pull before. If your rear toe is adjustable, get them to even it out as much as possible so thrust is as close to zero as possible.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/08/2019 at 11:58

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... oh, well, shit.

Yank the spacers. I forgot you had the spacers. If it reproduces, bad wheel. If it doesn’t, bad spacers.

Duck Duck Grey Duck FTMFW! > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/08/2019 at 12:08

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I know you are running wheel spacers. Honda's are a hub centric wheel. I don't know if your spacer is allowing that to happen. I know the lug nuts will put it pretty damn close but this might be some of the vibration.

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > Duck Duck Grey Duck FTMFW! 03/08/2019 at 12:10

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I could believe that, for sure.  It would explain why there was no vibration until I rotated the tires.

Aremmes > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/08/2019 at 12:19

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Directional tires will cause issues if mounted backwards (rotating counter to their designed direction) as the contact patch changes shape . The internet is often wrong.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/08/2019 at 12:50

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Just because things are in the green, well, it just means they’re within a pretty big range of adjustment. Good alignment guys are hard to find, as most of them don’t know too much more than how to get things in green without understanding how big those ranges are and how things change and interact with each other and throughout the range of motion . It looks and sounds to me like you maybe chasing two separate problems.

I don’t like that toe split on the rear, even if the total toe is reasonable . That reads to me like the back of the car is trying to crab to the left, which would explain the pull. The progression looks to me like when they guy toed out the LR to catch the total toe in the back he may have induced a tracking problem. I would’ve adjusted the toe-in on the RR to catch the total, but there maybe some other reason he didn’t. I’m not familiar with the adjustment capabilities on the back of the that car (as the awd makes for a rear suspension completely different from my racecar) , but that’s what I see there. Up front, a toe-split tends to not matter so long as you caught the toe with the steering wheel in the dead-nuts center (or what the owner thinks is center) position. Toe-splits at the rear can induce some weird stuff like tracking problems and bump-steer issues.

The only thing I can think of that could be causing both a pull and vibration issue would be an out of round tire. It isn’t common, but it does happen (I’ve had   two new truck tires over the years that had crazy amounts of runout and caused some interesting vibration problems, but only under really specific circumstances). A really good alignment guy should have no problem checking for that, but most tire shops will think you’ve grown a dick out of your forehead when you ask them about the possibility of a tire out of round .

I would try running without spacers and see what happens, in terms of the vibration. There could also be a wheel runout issue. The possibility of the vibration being induced by running LT tires on this car is certainly possible (and it would be exacerbated by anything less than top notch shocks/struts and/or any play or wear in ball joints/bushings or wheel bearing). Unsprung weight is probably the single biggest factor you can easily change that has huge impacts on how a car drives and handles, and you’ve added an ton of it to this car. You can easily add a bigger and heavier wheel/tire package to a car or truck that sets up more unsprung weight than the suspension can properly control. Just a few pounds change in unsprung weight has significant measurable impacts on handling . If there’s something not up to snuff in the suspension of that car, the added unsprung weight will amplify the issues.

oldHondaMech > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/09/2019 at 08:06

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How about getting your tires road force measured...? I think you have at least one tire with a shifted belt.

Ready for an adventure! > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/09/2019 at 08:29

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are the brake calipers sticking? and/or the rotors warped?

RacinBob > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/09/2019 at 09:51

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Something that I like to do is put one front corner in the air, start it and put it in gear and run it. First, I want to observe the tread and tire body and see if they are rolling true. If it rolls with a “kick”, there is something wrong with the construction of the tire.

I also run it up to about 40 mph. (be careful with all of this) and see if it starts shaking.....

Also, if it is shaking badly, somebody should be able to observe it in a car next to you. Have somebody look and see which corner is doing it.

I don’t place much stock in the spacers being the problem. I’ve raced for about 20 years with hondas that either had spacers or did not have hub centric rims without a problem. If the spacer was causing a problem, you should be able to see it when the wheel is in the air and spinning.

It’s too bad that you can’t put a different set of tires/rims on it and see if the problem goes away.....

RacinBob > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/09/2019 at 10:05

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I n my experience, anything to cause a major pull or shake is observable and caused by a major not minor issue. These things aren’t due to a 1% error, more like a 40% error and they usually are obvious once you see it. I think it’s a tire construction problem. Especially as the problem changes when you rotate the tires.

Bubba_randolph > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/09/2019 at 10:42

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Shortly after replacing my front lower control arms (both left and right) and an alignment my car became misaligned again. I need to go back and ask them to fix it, but I haven’t yet. Make sure you control arms are fine and any other major suspension components. 

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > Ready for an adventure! 03/09/2019 at 11:07

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Oh damn! I noticed the lug nuts were hot after a drive and I did just replace the pads! That is a hell of a good catch.

SHIFTmaverick > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/09/2019 at 13:16

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Definitely check out the brakes. Sticking brakes would cause this. I'm a Chevy tech and we've had a couple trucks pulling and found pads to be stuck in the brackets. 

Josh > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/09/2019 at 14:25

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Im going to have to say as a suspension and chassis certified technician that I bet you have bad tires or a caliper is sticking. It may also be the road you are driving on, roads are not flat and angle to the right or left depending on the road for watershed.

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > Ready for an adventure! 03/09/2019 at 20:50

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Winner!  Greased the slides and the problem went away!

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 03/09/2019 at 20:53

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Thank you for the well thought out response. I think this highlights that I should go to my actual alignment shop, rather than let the corner shop do it . They’re just so damned convenient and the good alignment place is all the way across town...

As for the unsprung weight, I have the option to exchange the LT tires for touring tires that are about 4.4 lbs lighter. Worth doing? I’d be a little bummed to lose the off-road durability, but at the end of the day this car is going to spend 98% of its life on-road.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/09/2019 at 21:30

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That might be worth doing, but I’d have your guy go through everything first and see where the running gear really stands.

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 03/09/2019 at 21:42

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Oh hey forgot to say that it ended up being a sticky caliper. Cleaned and greased the slide pins and the pull went away. I was so focused on the wheels, tires, suspension and steering I forgot that I changed the brake pads and flex hoses. Calipers were in good shape, so I didn’t mess with them. Oops.

Everything else is in pretty good shape. I wiggled everything I could get at while doing my flex hoses and everything was shockingly tight. The ball joints will need to be done at some point as the boots are starting to look bad, but overall everything is in stellar shape for the age of the car. When I took it to the shop for the alignment they said the same thing.  I’m sure this trip in April is going to shake some stuff loose, however.

ateamfan42 > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/11/2019 at 10:00

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Just because things are in the green, well, it just means they’re within a pretty big range of adjustment.

So much this. Auto makers seem to be defining wider and wider alignment tolerances just so they can slap something together and claim it is “in spec”.

One of the advantages of doing alignments yourself is that you have to learn what the numbers mean, and can take the time to get things as close to ideal as possible, not just “good enough”.